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Discussion Starter #1
I've often wondered what the difference was between thse two engines and knew someone here would be able to tel me :smile: Is it different production facilities or performance diffs?
 

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The Windsor motors are named after the production facility, I don't know if that's true of the Cleveland. Old timers, correct me if I'm wrong (Cleveland production stopped before I was born): Cleveland heads flow better (larger valve openings?) & can handle higher rpm's (4 bolt mains?) Basically, the Cleveland is a tougher motor with more torque than a Windsor motor.
 

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It's the same ole story:
Big Block vs. Small Block
after years of discussion, I've decided it's personal opinion...I've heard so many pro's on both engines..
I do know that it's harder to find replacment parts (at least in my area) for the Cleveland.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Are you saying one's a small block and one's a big block or long block? Which is which?
 

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Both are small blocks with the same displacement - 351 cubic inches. Differences between small & big block is usually cylinder head size & bore/stroke numbers. Displacement isn't a sure sign of a big block. For instance, the old FE 352 is a big block, whereas the 400M in my F250 is a small block. As a general rule, big blocks make more torque lower in the rpm curve & can withstand sustained high revs. Small blocks usually give up a little torque for more peak hp higher in the rpm band & they won't handle high revs as well. Again, these are generic rules for stock motors, with money & mods, you can make any motor do pretty much anything. Also, a long block describes what an engine comes with, ie: block, crank, rods & pistons, heads & valves, cam & sometimes intake & carb. A shortblock is usually just the block, crank, rods & pistons, sometimes the heads. A rotating assembly is just the crank, rods & pistons.
 

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I had a 351-C in my first car/truck, 70 Ranchero GT and I was told that you could change basically the top of the engine over to a 400 (I think) with out a whole lot of other machining needed. Of course that was 15 yrs ago so my memory may not be perfect. Other than that most people say the Cleveland is just an overall better engine. I know mine would flat out get it when I hit the gas!
Cam
 

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From my understanding, the 351W is the small block while the 351M and 351C (Modified and Cleveland) are the big blocks. Of course, I don't know how much the 351W ended up pushing in hp before Ford finally axed it but I believe it was the 95 Cobra R which pushed 300hp. The Cleveland... Well, you can do so much to big blocks. Lots of power and displacement, the 429 CJ the perfect example. The Modifieds... errr... were pieces of sh*ts that were in trucks. I'd say they had a lot of torque though...
 

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A Cleveland, Modified & Windsor at 351 cubic inches are all small blocks. 400 truck engines aren't junk, they just aren't high horsepower engines from the factory. But they have gobs of torque & you can beat on them all day. My 1980 motor is truly built Ford tough. I p*ssed all over that thing in college, nearly ran it out of oil twice & it always started right up. I plan on rebuilding it & putting it in the 85 GT.
 

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I missed this discussion, since it ended before I joined, but here goes.

The 351W is older than the 351C. The W is the same family that gave us the 289 and 302. The 351C was introduced in 1970 as a racing engine. 351C ended in the USA in the late 70's, but continuied in Australia into the late 80's/early 90's when the tooling was so worn out as to be useless. Some of the Aussie blocks found there way to the USA for use in racing applications. I've recently read that an Aussie company has manufactured new tooling and is producing new Clevelands.

Clevelands featured siamesed cylinders with regard to coolant passages, and were thin wall construction which limited the amount of over-boring you could do without screwing up the block. That didn't do much for their popularity with the hot rod crowd, but in stock trim the 351C was capable of higher output than the 351W thanks to it's being designed as a racing engine from the start.

The Cleveland heads have canted valves and came in 2V and 4V (V being the designation for carb barrels not valves). The canted valve was a pseudo-hemi feature. The 2V heads breathed better than the 4Vs. The GT40 heads that Ford Racing currently sells use the Cleveland's canted valve design adapted to the Windsor block.

My first car was a 72 Mercury Montego with a 351C 2V. I wish I had had the forethought to yank the engine and keep it.
 

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I just spent 1 hour typing the Jimmy Ray book on the 351C v 351W Book of learning and It got dumped. If you want to know the ugly story behind the 351C v 351W e-mail me. Because I'm worn out, fingers hurt and my beer is getting cold
 

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What follows is taken from an old motorsport catalog.

The Windsor engine plant builds this engine, hence the name. Normally this is not important. But another engine, the 351C[for Cleveland engine plant], has the same displacement. That is all they have in common.So it is always important to differentiate between the two.The 351W is a beefier block than the 289/302,but has the same bore spacing[4.38"]and bore dia.[4.00"], so heads retrofit. A higher deck height requires a unique intake manifold. Main journals[3.00"] are larger than the 289/302[2.25"]. Camshafts interchange, but the 351W has a different firing order :[1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8] vs. [1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8] for the289/302, except 1982 and later 302HO which use the 351W firing order. The 351W has been used from 1969.

The 351C entered the scene in 1970 and was produced until 1974. It has canted valves with multi groove keepers, hydraulic cam , pedestal mounted rocker arms with "sled" fulcrum seats that are retained with cap bolts. Heads for 2V induction have "open" chambers with rounded ports, while 4V heads have "quench" combustion chambers with larger rounded intake and exhaust ports. A 351C Cobra Jet a ppeared in 1971 with 4-bolt main caps, which was carried over in 1972 as the 351C-4V with open chamber heads.








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