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On 2001-12-08 13:56, Mid Life Crisis #388 wrote:
Bob,
I will try to answer each of your comments, perhaps I can teach by example...
thanks for the compliment on the site, it would not be there if it were not for everyone here at bullittclub.com contributing in one way or another..
The four ball wear test is an example of how manufactures use what looks to be the same test to compare the results when actually the tests are totally different, look at the example.... There aren't even any results given, just the the test description.......I only picked that one because it was long and deceptive.
I am not an Amsoil dealer.
The facts are correct, read it again. You think something is wrong quote it, I'll prove it or change it.....
Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172)
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/PAGES/D4172.htm?L+mystore+yqky2298
"evaluation of the anti-wear properties of fluid lubricants in sliding contact "
and while there are no balls rolling around in the engine I do believe there is some metal sliding on metal happening.
The GEASE Test Method D 2266
As a member of STLE you should know the difference...and I think you do.....
As far as
http://www.engineoilinfo.com
First they want money, second It looks like they only give you 8 test results and if they use astm numbers then good because the 4 ball test is an ASTM TEST.........
I'm walking the fence???? ON what? You tell people that an extended drain is ok and will not violate the manufactures warranty is dependent on how nice the dealer is????????????
A lot of this discussion started when people (Not naming names) where bashing other peoples choices of oil when the product they were praising, (not mentionging names) did not meet Fords warranty either.
For some reason the rules you want to bash other people with do not apply for your products.
I am walking the FENCE, what in the hell are you talking about? IF anything that last paragraph about
"giving advise that if someone was to take and experience a problem could include you in thier law suit." Doesn't that more go to someone like YOU............
Still have not heard back from your company, I asked what the 4 ball wear test was on some of their products and if they approve of you telling people that extended drains would not violate the manufactuers warranty.....
I will let you know when they get back though..
becareful my friend.
_________________
Mid Life Crisis #388
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mid Life Crisis #388 on 2001-12-08 13:57 ]</font>
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well i see as someone emailed me about how your not working on all cyl's must have been a correct asumption. if your trying to get me into some trouble with my company that i have been using for over 8 yrs myself, let me say i hope you quoted me verbatem, cause i'm sure you'd never want to "imply" something i said when in fact it wasnt true. personally i think your not a very nice person trying to play that game with me and the company i work with. pretty low don't you think trying to get something stired up with my lively hood?
i'll explain this as plainly as possible and if you want to accept it, so be it, other wise, i tire of trying to explain myself to you and i will not bother continuing as i have been doing nothing more than trying to educate some points and NOT SELL.
i have not badgered amsoil to sell schaeffers. don't care if you do or don't use it. your the idiot if you stick a non api oil in and extend your drains without talking with the dealer and covering your expensive investment.
i have repeatedly told you, we don't and wont' carry a 5w20 oil so where do u get off saying i'm knocking them to sell ours when in fact we don't even cary that oil?!!!
GOD you sure can get someone wound up with your ability to twist words and make things sound as they're not intended as.
one thing, i never said they can extend drains against the manufactures recomendations! don't twist my statements. i said "with the dealerships approval which is the one that has to do the warr work, then you could extend your drains", which is being more widely accepted by more manufactures around, but only if approved by such can they. in no way am i advocating extending drains with out such aproval. i hope you can understand that.
four ball wear tests
".1 This test method covers a procedure for making a preliminary evaluation of the anti-wear properties of fluid lubricants in sliding contact by means of the Four-Ball Wear Test Machine"
This test method covers the determination of the wear preventive characteristics of greases in sliding steel-on-steel applications. It is not intended to predict wear characteristics with metal combinations other than steel-on-steel or to evaluate the extreme pressure characteristics of grease where steel rides on steel. The evaluation of lubricating grease using the same machine is detailed in Test Method D2266. do you know the difference in viscosity between grease and motor oil? if the CSt is over 5000Cst's then this test is appropriate.
after the disputed and interesting article put out by redline about the 4 ball test,
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/Amsoil_S2000.pdf i have since heard from other leading individuals in the industry that what redline said had some serious merit. oh yeah, thier not a disgruntal employee either, just someone that decieded to stand up to some untruths.
they stated in short, amsoil loads up with high levels of (zddp maybe?) or whatever, causing good 4 ball tests on the bench initally, but when run in an engine for approx 800miles where effected by normal blowby gases, heat and such, then it performed no better than a standard synth motor oil thus the 4ball wasn't a true evailuation of the oil.
although i think the priciple idea is good, it is misleading. i think you'd find not many people consider the heat and blowby gases as a factor in this test.
now if you want to test load carrying capacity for an engine oil here is this test.
this test is used in motor oils and in some cases, greases as well. show me where you see the word motor oil in the 4 ball wear test listed on the astm board.
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/PAGES/D2782.htm?L+mystore+uzia0481+1007867656
timken.. 1.1 This test method covers the determination of the load-carrying capacity of lubricating fluids by means of the Timken Extreme Pressure Tester.
Note 1-This test method is suitable for testing fluids having a viscosity of less than about 5000 cSt (5000 mm2/s) at 40°C. For testing fluids having a higher viscosity, refer to Note 7 in 9.1.1.2
here is the point.. why not use the timken if testing for ep in the oil instead of the 4 ball? this test was designed for just that.
4 ball is for higher CST's like grease.
if you study more on the states of lubrication. this is where you have the difference of hydrodynamic/full fluid film, mixed film, and barrier film lubrication properties. you'll start to understand what and how shearing affects oil and how barrier lubricants make the difference in a good oil and not just is it synth or mineral.
now this isn't to say amsoil isn't good, just think that people need to understand when a company is using shaded practices for selling thier lubricants.
IMO, in think amsoil is ok, but i think ford's oil is as good as any of them since they do have a double sequence III tests where as most only provide a single test.
that's my story and i'm sticking to it!
bob
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
ps, yes your so right, it is very importaint for me to stay in the middle as much as possible and not mislead people. if you read my board and site, you'll find i try not to descriminate against an oil because i don't like it, i try to base my opinion on numbers and facts from 3 party non biased companies and not listen to just what the company propaganda is.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bobistheoilguy on 2001-12-08 18:42 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bobistheoilguy on 2001-12-08 19:18 ]</font>
