[fixer]

I drove three GT's, one auto two manuals.

They all did it at the exact same rpm and had the exact same noise (loudness, quality, and length of time to go away).
All had varying degrees of mileage; from 57 miles to 707 miles.

I rode with the "shop foreman" in all three and he thinks it is an inconsequential engine noise.

I gave him all of the background on my car, and what i think the problem is (detonation).

His exact words were: The piston design is such that when cold, it is not exactly perfectly round... and they designed them that way to prevent piston slap DOWN THE ROAD. If the engine was built with pistons that were really tight (no noise on start up or any other time)then on the initial dry or cold start-up scoring and wearing of the cylinder walls is increased due to the motion of the crankshaft combined with the skirt design. This seems to be a compromise; no noise at start-up but a little noise at tip in. Also, tightly fitted pistons can contribute to strange and mysterious overheating poroblems due to increased friction.

I mention my theory about there being an error in the calibration for open loop causing detonation and he kinda winced and made faces and said it is entirely possible and it does sound pretty close to detonation. But he then added tha Ford goes over the ECM programs continuosly (like everyday) looking for problems. Thats why you can get two cars from the same model year that have different computer programs.

He also added that the noise seems to go away before open loop turns to closed loop which points away from an ECU problem. The piston or pistons he said are heating up faster than the time it takes to go into closed loop.

However, or whatever the case may be, a field engineer will be visiting this particular dealership on friday and the service manager and the foreman (as well as I) are gonna spring this on him and see what he thinks. Could be interesting....

Bottomline: DO NOT TAKE YOUR CAR TO THE DEALER AND RISK GETTING THE HELL SCRATCHED OUT OF IT--FOR NOTHING.

I'm keeping the car and getting the extended warranty (free of charge).

In case anyone is not familiar with my story, I had this engine noise and the first dealer i went to decided to put a motor in it. They fugged up the exterior of the car, and the new engine makes the same noise as the first.

I'll see what the field engineer says and post that, but i'm keeping the car regardless...

Good luck with yours...

 

[Mid Life Crisis #388]

fixer,
Thanks for the update. Sounds like you actually got some friendly service that time. most of the time we just want the right story and not to get jerked around. Least it looks like they are working with you and realize you are not some fresh turnip off the truck. Bottom line I guess is be patient and wait for them to figure out what it is and what they are going to do. No need to jump in all huffy and demand they start changing parts.
thanks again.

 

[Nasty Bob]

The simplest and most accurate way to find out if something is knocking around in the engine is take a sample of your oil for an analysis at your next oil change. If something out of the ordinary is wearing improperly or scraping, it will show up in the test results. It's also accurate for transmissions and rear ends.

The test can discriminate between piston, bearing, wrist pin materials, fuel contamination, etc. This is how they keep track of when something's wrong in $25,000 diesel engines in semi trucks.

Take my word for it, it really works.

_________________

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 1NastyFordGT on 2001-12-31 13:30 ]</font>

 

['01 Hoofbeat]

If the motors were designed like the foreman said, why dont 99 and 2000 model years do it. Why don't all 2001 Bullitts and GT's make this noise. I refuse to believe this sound is "normal" by any stretch. If I knew my GT was going to make this noise and have techs say that it should make this noise, I would have bought a 2001 Trans am ram air, and believe me, this is saying alot, I love All Mustangs and always will, but to have a car that I paid $25,100 for make a horrible noise like this is just not acceptable to me.

 

[fixer]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-31 14:06, '01 Hoofbeat wrote:
If the motors were designed like the foreman said, why dont 99 and 2000 model years do it. Why don't all 2001 Bullitts and GT's make this noise. I refuse to believe this sound is "normal" by any stretch.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

99 and 00 received engines that had some minor differences--pistons being one of them.

Also, The plant that built the engines changed from Windsor to Romeo.

As far as why not everysingle one makes the noise...maybe they do and people aren't driving their cars the right way to hear it. Or it could be the case where the problem takes a few thousand miles to surface.

Also, it could be the case that maybe some people don't really care and aren't bothered by the noise.

Personally i think that the reason why it took 300 miles for me to notice was that it didn't get cold right away, and i wasn't driving the car in the exact way that is necessary to hear the noise.

 

[Nasty Bob]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-31 14:49, fixer wrote:
99 and 00 received engines that had some minor differences--pistons being one of them.

Also, The plant that built the engines changed from Windsor to Romeo.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm cut and pasting Rara's earlier posting. He is another insider.

"IIRC, all Bullitt engines were built in Windsor, which means 8-bolt cranks (don't quote me, I'm going from memory) the underdrive pulley thing, is in relation to the alternator and waterpump pulleys. The alternator is the same as on the Cobra, and compared to the GT alternator, it is underdriven (15% IIRC, but again, I'm not 100% sure on the exact #) the water pump may have a slightly underdriven pulley on there as well.
The Bullitt does not have unique heads, they are the same as the GT.
The SVO intake that has been in the FRPP catalog for some time is not the same manifold as the Bullitt, though the overall design is similar."

 

[DrivingSimulators]

fixer,

You are doing a great job in helping to solve this problem. I'm sure everyone here appreciates your effort.

I'll post my Bullitt's sound recording on the web later today.

1NastyFordGT,

Will the dealers do such an elaborate oil analysis? Sounds like a great idea. Where can such an analysis be performed? How much does it cost?

'01 Hoofbeat,

I agree the noise is not normal. When it is occuring, excess wear may also be occuring. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often, but mine still makes the noise (although subdued) sometimes when hot.
The LS1 is not without its own problems: some of them burn oil (even with the 2001 ring fix).

Someone here mentioned that engines with aftermarket forged internals did not make the noise. So if the problem is with the factory piston design, every engine exhibiting this problem should get forged pistons to fix the problem, and a supercharger for their trouble. 8^). I already paid $1000 for the Ford extended warranty (first day rental car, best options, etc.).

 

[fixer]

Maybe bullitts are from windsor.

My valve cover says romeo...

 

[Bullitt4601]

I appreciate everyone trying to get to the bottom of this, but have 2 cents:

My car has this detonation/rattle sound, when very cold, beyond 3000 rpm. What do I do? Drive below 3000 rpm until it warms up! I was alway told that if you wanted the engine to live a long time, be easy on it until it is fully warm (oil too).

My theory is that it is chain tensioner related, that the cold oil is not pressurizing the tensioner properly. But trust me, I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet.

BTW, when warm, I do get some light ping at wide open throttle and high revs, but I'm still too cheap to put good gasoline in it.

 

[fixer]

With 9.4:1 compression it amazes me that my car hasn't been pinging. I'm expecting to eventually have to start using 92.

Basically chain tensioners has been tried twice. 0685 and basically me (if you count the new engine)has new tensioners and it didn't fix it.

Chain tension was checked (cold i assume, but i have a note on my RO that is was checked) on my first engine. It was fine.

I figured that if it were chain tensioners you could get the noise if you let the car sit for as little as 1 hour, and it would sound like an old toyota 22-R with 200,000 on the clock (these engines had a terrible problem with tensioners; ran forever but eventually the chain would wear through into a water passage in the timing cover).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: fixer on 2001-12-31 17:29 ]</font>

 

[RenegadeBullitt]

Well, Well,
I had to go to the store a little while ago and decided to do some testing to see if I had the knockin/ticking problem. The answer is...YES...I do have it!! :smile:.
I think I can safely say that it is not 'piston slap' making the noise. It's to rapid of a noise for that. If it were piston slap and it was making that noise, I have to believe that the skirts where cracked because of a way loose tolerance between the skirts and the cylinder wall. Not my choice for the problem. Many years ago, I came across a similar situation with an Olds Calais with the old "Iron Duke" engine (4 cyliner). There was a TSB out for the noise on that engine and I believe it had to do with the timing gear dimensions not being correct causing a valve train noise. The noise I'm hearing in my Bullitt is very similar to this noise. HMMM!! The noise is not something coming from inside the block IMO. It sounds like more of a surface noise. The only other similar noise that it could be is detonation. This also could be the case. As I was driving and hearing this noise (engine cold) under light load, I pressed the pedal to create a heavy load and the noise got louder. This in itself would make me believe that it is more of a detonation problem. Our cars when cold are programed to run rich for a certain amount of time and lean out as the engine temperature increases. If the engine is not running in the rich condition, it will ping or detonate because of a lean condition. So, anyway, those are my choices as far as the evil noise is concerned. Anybody care to comment? Also, I don't think this is an isolated problem that only is happening to a few people. I blieve everybody who owns a Bullitt has this noised. The ones that say they don't have not tested for the noise. So, go out and do this simple test. Engine cold, drive in first gear and get the R's up to between 3500 and 4000 R's. Make sure you don't have any accessories on (heater, radio, etc.) and leave the windows rolled up. I believe if you do this, you will have the noise. If you don't have the noise, I will be surprized. Go to it!! :grin:

 

[Bullitt4995]

Glad to see everyone getting involved. Maybe by luck we can find a cure? I sure hope so. :smile:

 

[Escrotumus]

I started getting this noise at around 2600 miles on the odometer. It makes a god awful racket when cold between 3-4k rpm. This coupled with the incessant ticking noise that never goes away are enough to drive anyone batty. The car has 2800 miles on it now and when its cold it sounds like a rattling sewing machine. Im gonna make the appointment on wednesday to have the car looked at and demand they fix the ticking noise once and for all since me and another bullitthead feel strongly that it is 2 bad injectors. The rattle noise isnt that much of a problem to me as long as it isnt indicative of something going bad 2 years down the road due to it. It does go away after 5 mins anyway, unlike the ticking.

 

[DrivingSimulators]

I was not able to reproduce the rattle sound today. The ambient temp was a bit up (around 65F). I also switched to Chevron 91 yesterday.

Since I went to the trouble to record the engine (mics placed on each side of the intake manifold between runners to help mask injectors and exhaust), here are two mp3 sounds of my Bullitt's engine NOT making abnormal sounds (as you'll hear, I tried many different RPMs):

320kBPS (high quality is required to capture the high frequency sound here). ~18MB
http://www.brightland.com/bullitt/bullitt2.mp3

64kBPS (aliasing distortion present, but a ~3MB file)
http://www.brightland.com/bullitt/bullitt.mp3

Next guess: If what we are hearing is detonation (so far no rattle with 91 octane), then the fix could be as simple as updated software: the air-fuel ratio could be going slightly lean and/or the timing is slightly too advanced in certain RPMs/loads while the engine is cold.

If the software is adaptive ("learning"), I wouldn't be surprised if the rattle sound came back after a few days of running 91. Then the fix would most likely be a reflash of the computer with updated software. I don't think the pistons or cylinder walls could "learn" the new higher octane fuel, eh?

I'll keep a recording device in the car for the next couple of days.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DrivingSimulators on 2001-12-31 20:58 ]</font>

 

[fixer]

I thought about using some 92 to see if the problem gets better.

If the noise is detonation, the detonation problem is SO bad that higher octane will only help--not totally alleviate the noise.

It'd be a pain and rather expensive but a wide band 02 monitor --a la a dyno-- would be able to tell.

If the A/F ratio dips to the 18.5-20 range its definitely lean enough to cause severe detonation.

 

[fixer]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-31 18:42, RenegadeBullitt wrote:

Also, I don't think this is an isolated problem that only is happening to a few people. I believe everybody who owns a Bullitt has this noised. The ones that say they don't have not tested for the noise. So, go out and do this simple test. Engine cold, drive in first gear and get the R's up to between 3500 and 4000 R's. Make sure you don't have any accessories on (heater, radio, etc.) and leave the windows rolled up. I believe if you do this, you will have the noise.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

i agree.

However, I've got a Gt. I drove three GT's this morning that did it. A "few" people on some other boards with Gt's have complained about it. And i believe there is more than a couple GT owners on this particular board that have it.

Nevertheless, i agree that alot of people may have the noise and not realize it because they haven't driven their cars in the necessary fashion or, they've heard the noise and don't care.

But the rpm range in my experience is between 2800 and 3500 rpm. But i've heard (of instances) as high as 4000 rpm.

The gear that it is most audiable in is 2 & 3 (haven't tried 4th at 3k rpm. thats like 90 mph). 1st, for me, is barely audiable. It was the same way in all of the cars i drove today. Even in the automatic, when i put the selector in 1st you could sort of hear it. When in second it really came out.

The automatic was a little tricky to isolate the noise.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: fixer on 2001-12-31 21:22 ]</font>

 

[DrivingSimulators]

If higher octane causes a change in behavior (less noise in some cars, no noise in others), wouldn't that imply that detonation was the culprit? A reflash would certainly be cheap and easy... I have an AutoTap I bought for my C5; are their similar tools for Fords? Any way to adjust timing and fuel curves with a laptop PC? It would be nice to be able to graph the lookup tables, save the values, and modify them for particular RPM bands to try to solve the problem(s)...

I would not want to simply globally retard the timing and richen the air-fuel mixture (loss of power and mileage). In the language of software developers, that would be a simple hack (and a crappy one at that).

 

[fixer]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-31 21:57, DrivingSimulators wrote:
If higher octane causes a change in behavior (less noise in some cars, no noise in others), wouldn't that imply that detonation was the culprit? A reflash would certainly be cheap and easy... I have an AutoTap I bought for my C5; are their similar tools for Fords? Any way to adjust timing and fuel curves with a laptop PC? It would be nice to be able to graph the lookup tables, save the values, and modify them for particular RPM bands to try to solve the problem(s)...

I would not want to simply globally retard the timing and richen the air-fuel mixture (loss of power and mileage). In the language of software developers, that would be a simple hack (and a crappy one at that).
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

yep. you're right on the money.

It would imply detonation. I just didn't want to claim that it was a simple fix like going up a grade in gas.

And yes fuel, timing..all the maps in the ECU are done with a PC (or laptop). In fact most that i've seen are in a converted excel file with a regular X/Y plot.

Trouble is... the technology necessary to do this is only at the manufacturer or the dealer. The eecIV computers have hardware available through the aftermarket foir exactly this, but none is available for the EECv. The aftermarket chip makers have this, but they've got the money to buy the hardware/software and altering the fuel maps is exactly what they do when you get a chip.

Someone on this board has a chip and the noise; but i'll guarantee you that the chip didn't touch open loop values.

A Scan tool might be of a little help to monitor 02 while in open loop. This would also point to a severe lean condidition. You can't make adjustments with a scan tool.

If it is a reflash it would likely only affect cold engine drivability--not regular driving.

 

[RenegadeBullitt]

One of the things I may try with mine is to buy some octane booster and see if that makes a difference. If it is a problem with air/fuel ratio, it may not change a thing. I'm not a real fan of fuel additives because I believe that most of them are just snake oil.
I believe our Bullitts computer are programable with a laptop. The V-6 boys have been using a ECC tuner to change air/fuel ratios and timing in there cars (99 to present) so there is no reason such a device could not be used on ours.

 

[Mid Life Crisis #388]

If it were a too lean condition when cold, then couldn't I drop it in 5th like at 15 miles and hour and step on it and it would ping like crazy?