sorry to hear that you have not gotten the problem solved. Hope I do not go through the same thing
Some cold engine KNOCK feedback from FORD...
Here's what the Ford engineer told me today:
"The 4.6L's have switched the piston to a smaller, lighter, higher performance shorter skirt piston that is designed to perfectly fit a warm engine. There may be noise when the engine is cold for the first few minutes. This is normal, hence, there is no fix for cold engine knock planned or in place. The noise you hear causes absolutely no wear and tear."
Here's what I said...
"Yeah, but the noise I get is LOUD...like the engine is coming apart, I can't believe there's no wear, and is there from 2,700-4,000 until the temp guage is mid. arc, which usually takes at least 15 minutes of warm-up.
90% of my driving is 20 minutes hops at the beginning and end of 12 hour shifts, so 90% of the time I'm either short-shifting or letting the car warm up 15 minutes for a 20 minute drive."
His reply...
"It could be that your car has the noise louder than most. We'll have to meet when your engine's warm so I can hear it in person."
Seems we keep going around in circles. I had left my car overnight at Ford in October so the mechanic and foreman-supervisor could hear the knock. Now we're back to this again. I'll keep you all posted.
"The 4.6L's have switched the piston to a smaller, lighter, higher performance shorter skirt piston that is designed to perfectly fit a warm engine. There may be noise when the engine is cold for the first few minutes. This is normal, hence, there is no fix for cold engine knock planned or in place. The noise you hear causes absolutely no wear and tear."
Here's what I said...
"Yeah, but the noise I get is LOUD...like the engine is coming apart, I can't believe there's no wear, and is there from 2,700-4,000 until the temp guage is mid. arc, which usually takes at least 15 minutes of warm-up.
90% of my driving is 20 minutes hops at the beginning and end of 12 hour shifts, so 90% of the time I'm either short-shifting or letting the car warm up 15 minutes for a 20 minute drive."
His reply...
"It could be that your car has the noise louder than most. We'll have to meet when your engine's warm so I can hear it in person."
Seems we keep going around in circles. I had left my car overnight at Ford in October so the mechanic and foreman-supervisor could hear the knock. Now we're back to this again. I'll keep you all posted.
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Dennis,
I am taking my car in Thursday night for a Friday a.m. appointment for the exact same thing. I want to make sure they have the noise on record in case something goes wrong down the road. In addition I am planning on puting Long Tube headers on in the next week or two and I don't want them to have any excuses to say it was something I did.
Wish me luck,
Eric
I am taking my car in Thursday night for a Friday a.m. appointment for the exact same thing. I want to make sure they have the noise on record in case something goes wrong down the road. In addition I am planning on puting Long Tube headers on in the next week or two and I don't want them to have any excuses to say it was something I did.
Wish me luck,
Eric
Heard the same thing from a field engineer here in Mesa...
Funny thing today:
Car sat for about 3 hours and the temp guage was right at the thick bar just off of "C" and i still heard the noise (although it was very minimal).
So there was still heat in the motor and i still heard it.
And the temps were a bit warm here in the valley (low- mid 70's) and today i fired it up and ran it at the hottest part of the day (3 o' clock) and the noise was also barely noticeable.
Funny thing today:
Car sat for about 3 hours and the temp guage was right at the thick bar just off of "C" and i still heard the noise (although it was very minimal).
So there was still heat in the motor and i still heard it.
And the temps were a bit warm here in the valley (low- mid 70's) and today i fired it up and ran it at the hottest part of the day (3 o' clock) and the noise was also barely noticeable.
Dennis,
Someone on this BBS (a big engine diesel mech?) mentioned that you can check for engine wear problems by analyzing the oil. He said it was very accurate, and could determine precisely where the wear was coming from (based on metal analysis).
So, those with really loud engine rattle might want to have their oil checked at the next drain interval. If there is truly no abnormal wear in the pistons/rings/cylinder walls, such a test should show that to be true, no?
If it turns out to be very expensive to do, we could perhaps start a donation fund to have such an analysis done on the worst sounding cars. My car does not (currently!) make that much noise, so I'd be glad to be make a donation (Paypal, etc).
I just took my Bullitt in to have the transmission looked at again (it's leaking after the shift fork rebuild, still crunches in 2nd while cold and 1st while hot). I also mentioned the detonation on 87, light ping on 89, no ping on 91 (but sluggish), cold engine rattle (2000-4000 RPM), driver's side front wheel bearing leaking, plastic brake resevoir leaking (seaping), slightly warped front brake rotors (I'm guessing caused by improperly torqued wheels), a minor rattle in the cabin, still present wind noise (2nd attempt), removal of StarGuard and replacement of associated panel (holes).
I told them not to do any work on the engine or transmission without contacting me first (I got this in writing). I had hoped the engine rattle problem was not piston related, but it appears that it may be the culprit. I had speculated that if it were piston related, we might see extra oil consumption. At around 1800 miles I had checked my oil and there was no noticeable oil use. After many attempts to isolate the engine rattle sound (inducing the sound intentionally), I measured my oil level at 2552 miles and it was a 1/2 quart low. 1/2 quart in ~752 miles. Cr*p. Hope that's just coincidence (I measured it very carefully both times, under the same conditions).
So, if what the Ford engineer says is accurate, is this indeed piston slap?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DrivingSimulators on 2002-01-09 00:48 ]</font>
Someone on this BBS (a big engine diesel mech?) mentioned that you can check for engine wear problems by analyzing the oil. He said it was very accurate, and could determine precisely where the wear was coming from (based on metal analysis).
So, those with really loud engine rattle might want to have their oil checked at the next drain interval. If there is truly no abnormal wear in the pistons/rings/cylinder walls, such a test should show that to be true, no?
If it turns out to be very expensive to do, we could perhaps start a donation fund to have such an analysis done on the worst sounding cars. My car does not (currently!) make that much noise, so I'd be glad to be make a donation (Paypal, etc).
I just took my Bullitt in to have the transmission looked at again (it's leaking after the shift fork rebuild, still crunches in 2nd while cold and 1st while hot). I also mentioned the detonation on 87, light ping on 89, no ping on 91 (but sluggish), cold engine rattle (2000-4000 RPM), driver's side front wheel bearing leaking, plastic brake resevoir leaking (seaping), slightly warped front brake rotors (I'm guessing caused by improperly torqued wheels), a minor rattle in the cabin, still present wind noise (2nd attempt), removal of StarGuard and replacement of associated panel (holes).
I told them not to do any work on the engine or transmission without contacting me first (I got this in writing). I had hoped the engine rattle problem was not piston related, but it appears that it may be the culprit. I had speculated that if it were piston related, we might see extra oil consumption. At around 1800 miles I had checked my oil and there was no noticeable oil use. After many attempts to isolate the engine rattle sound (inducing the sound intentionally), I measured my oil level at 2552 miles and it was a 1/2 quart low. 1/2 quart in ~752 miles. Cr*p. Hope that's just coincidence (I measured it very carefully both times, under the same conditions).
So, if what the Ford engineer says is accurate, is this indeed piston slap?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DrivingSimulators on 2002-01-09 00:48 ]</font>
I was alarmed on Monday to hear the same noise, for the first time, at around 2500 rpm as I was leaving the office complex. It startled me enough that I pulled over, looked under the hood and then proceeded. The next morning it did the same thing, though only momentarily. I don't know what to think, but I'm not sure I completely trust the Ford guy who says that it's OK and causes no wear and tear. I do know that I'm not interested in tearing off all my mods just for the pleasure of taking the car to the dealer and getting the same line from them. It would sure be nice not to have to deal with stuff like this on a basically new vehicle.
I guess I just keep it under two grand till the needle comes up....
I guess I just keep it under two grand till the needle comes up....
Sorry to hear about all the slap problems! Lord knows i have had my share of problems with my Bullitt but I can honestly say I havent had one probelm with the engine solid as a rock in 16 degree weather and summer. But of course the tranny is another story! notchy to say the least until in warms up which with a 21 mile commute one way it does have time. I run 87 octane and no ping, no leaks, just solid running. dont know if the way i broke my car in made a difference but i would always vary my speed up and down when on the interstate the first 500 miles and never took it over 70. I now have 6700 miles on her and lets just hope shes stays good! Because i dont like dealers. Always tryin to feed u BULL! Thanx Havgun #1676
I too have noticed that both the engine and transmission need to be fully warmed up or two things happen,
1. The transmission will have a slight catch when shifting from first to second.
2. The engine will make a sound that I’ll describe as valve lifter clatter if taken over 3k RPM. (I know there’s no lifters but that’s what it sounds like)
Once the car is fully warmed up, the symptoms go away but the Bullitt is a cold-blooded beast and the temp gauge has to be indicating straight up, fully warmed before these go away.
_________________
![]()
Hankster, DHG No. 2634
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hblattel on 2002-01-09 10:25 ]</font>
1. The transmission will have a slight catch when shifting from first to second.
2. The engine will make a sound that I’ll describe as valve lifter clatter if taken over 3k RPM. (I know there’s no lifters but that’s what it sounds like)
Once the car is fully warmed up, the symptoms go away but the Bullitt is a cold-blooded beast and the temp gauge has to be indicating straight up, fully warmed before these go away.
_________________
Hankster, DHG No. 2634
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hblattel on 2002-01-09 10:25 ]</font>
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2002-01-09 00:32, DrivingSimulators wrote:
Dennis,
Someone on this BBS (a big engine diesel mech?) mentioned that you can check for engine wear problems by analyzing the oil. He said it was very accurate, and could determine precisely where the wear was coming from (based on metal analysis). </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks, yes, I remember that helpful post and I mentioned it to the Ford Service manager. He said, "There will be no wear on this type of noise that could possibly show anything with an oil analysis. That type of thing is only done on large fleet vehicles so the owners can keep track of them better through time.
So I said,"It won't help at all? I mean it can't hurt to do it can it?"
And he said "Nope, it won't help at all"
I'm not saying I believed him, but he basically refused to do it for me. I have no idea how much it would cost to do it myself but I'd consider doing it. Don't know if Ford would accept a thrid party's analysis, though.
_________________
Dennis
Black#5578
Tri-Ax,DensChrgr100mm,MAC 2cat"H"&FlowPath muffs,FR 3.73&Alum.Drvshft,30mm H&R spacers,AutoLogic chip,MGW & Haney alum,FR500 wheel,SCHROTH red Harnesses
![]()
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 1NastyFordGT on 2002-01-10 00:12 ]</font>
On 2002-01-09 00:32, DrivingSimulators wrote:
Dennis,
Someone on this BBS (a big engine diesel mech?) mentioned that you can check for engine wear problems by analyzing the oil. He said it was very accurate, and could determine precisely where the wear was coming from (based on metal analysis). </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks, yes, I remember that helpful post and I mentioned it to the Ford Service manager. He said, "There will be no wear on this type of noise that could possibly show anything with an oil analysis. That type of thing is only done on large fleet vehicles so the owners can keep track of them better through time.
So I said,"It won't help at all? I mean it can't hurt to do it can it?"
And he said "Nope, it won't help at all"
I'm not saying I believed him, but he basically refused to do it for me. I have no idea how much it would cost to do it myself but I'd consider doing it. Don't know if Ford would accept a thrid party's analysis, though.
_________________
Dennis
Black#5578
Tri-Ax,DensChrgr100mm,MAC 2cat"H"&FlowPath muffs,FR 3.73&Alum.Drvshft,30mm H&R spacers,AutoLogic chip,MGW & Haney alum,FR500 wheel,SCHROTH red Harnesses
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 1NastyFordGT on 2002-01-10 00:12 ]</font>
<<a sound that I’ll describe as valve lifter clatter if taken over 3k RPM. (I know there’s no lifters but that’s what it sounds like)
Once the car is fully warmed up, the symptoms go away but the Bullitt is a cold-blooded beast and the temp gauge has to be indicating straight up, fully warmed before these go away.>>
That's exactly how I've described the sound mine makes, too. Mine will quit as soon as the temp needle has visibly come up off the peg, usually within a minute or two after I leave the house in the morning.
Fortunately, I haven't had any transmission troubles.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bushmaster on 2002-01-09 10:49 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bushmaster on 2002-01-09 10:50 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bushmaster on 2002-01-09 10:51 ]</font>
Once the car is fully warmed up, the symptoms go away but the Bullitt is a cold-blooded beast and the temp gauge has to be indicating straight up, fully warmed before these go away.>>
That's exactly how I've described the sound mine makes, too. Mine will quit as soon as the temp needle has visibly come up off the peg, usually within a minute or two after I leave the house in the morning.
Fortunately, I haven't had any transmission troubles.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bushmaster on 2002-01-09 10:49 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bushmaster on 2002-01-09 10:50 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bushmaster on 2002-01-09 10:51 ]</font>
Regarding the piston noise and wear issues: it can be (possibly) checked via oil analysis and/or tearing the motor apart (at least pulling a head) and examining the cylinder wall for scoring (more in depth: removing the pistons to check for wear).
Does anyone know who does the oil analysis process? Such companies could tell us if their analysis can show whether there is excess wear due to the piston noise. It would be nice to know one way or the other.
Does anyone know who does the oil analysis process? Such companies could tell us if their analysis can show whether there is excess wear due to the piston noise. It would be nice to know one way or the other.
I personally think Ford is FULL OF IT! The noise is NOT normal.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bullitt4995 on 2002-01-09 11:57 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bullitt4995 on 2003-12-04 21:00 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bullitt4995 on 2002-01-09 11:57 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bullitt4995 on 2003-12-04 21:00 ]</font>
Hey guys,
I have the same problem with my Cobra.
After the 1st 1000k miles my car would knock on cold start up and only last for a few seconds. I had it to the dealer 4 times and they did nothing. This was back in May.
Now that it is cold I have the extended knock/tap that you guys described.
I have been reading that alot of the 2001 mustangs have this. It seems like the GTs, Bullitts & Cobras have the same problem.
I not sure of the exact engine differences between the 3 - but whatever is different can be ruled out as the problem (most likely).
The good thing is that my initial start up knock has gone away for the most part and I am now at 11,700k.
Hopefully something will be found out on this soon....
Tony
I have the same problem with my Cobra.
After the 1st 1000k miles my car would knock on cold start up and only last for a few seconds. I had it to the dealer 4 times and they did nothing. This was back in May.
Now that it is cold I have the extended knock/tap that you guys described.
I have been reading that alot of the 2001 mustangs have this. It seems like the GTs, Bullitts & Cobras have the same problem.
I not sure of the exact engine differences between the 3 - but whatever is different can be ruled out as the problem (most likely).
The good thing is that my initial start up knock has gone away for the most part and I am now at 11,700k.
Hopefully something will be found out on this soon....
Tony
Mine does it when the engine is cold. More pronounced in the cooler weather here in TX now. It only does it above 2500 RPM until the temp gauge moves off the cold peg. It was non-existent in July, Aug., and Sept. with 90-100 degree daily temps.
I talked to a Hi-perf engine builder who said this is typical of short skirt pistons in a cold engine. They usually see it in extreme strokers when they use short skirted pistons to keep the bottom ends of them inside the cylinders.
I talked to a Hi-perf engine builder who said this is typical of short skirt pistons in a cold engine. They usually see it in extreme strokers when they use short skirted pistons to keep the bottom ends of them inside the cylinders.
My buddy, who never posts here :sad: , believes this noise to be in the wrist pin area. I have yet to hear it myself, but this guy is pretty good at calling stuff like this. Has anyone heard this mentioned at the dealers?
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2002-01-09 12:38, Silver Venom wrote:
Hey guys,
I have the same problem with my Cobra.
After the 1st 1000k miles my car would knock on cold start up and only last for a few seconds. I had it to the dealer 4 times and they did nothing. This was back in May.
Now that it is cold I have the extended knock/tap that you guys described.
I have been reading that alot of the 2001 mustangs have this. It seems like the GTs, Bullitts & Cobras have the same problem.
I not sure of the exact engine differences between the 3 - but whatever is different can be ruled out as the problem (most likely).
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks for the input, dude.
The Cobra has a Dual Overhead Cam engine; a DOHC motor. The Gt's and bullitts have the Single overhead cam (Sohc) motor.
Your car has 4 cam shafts, ours has two. The valve train is quite different between the two motors.
I had heard of a few instances on Corral.net of some cobras expereincing this noise.
Start-up knock isn't an issue here with the Bullitts and Gt's. Its the strange noise at or near 3k rpm when the engine is cold or has set for extended periods.
As far as i know NOBODY has been able to reproduce the noise in neutral. and there is no knock in neutral or start-up. But in gear for the first few minutes of driving, the engine sounds literally like a diesel and makes the peculiar rapping sound at 3k rpm.
I have what sounds like classic piston slap; i noticed this the first day i had the car and wasn't really concerned. This rapping noise is out of control. The piston slap i hear is at about 2000-2500 rpm and then at 3k rpm the rapping starts.
Just wanted to make the issue abundantly clear for your sake as well as anyone else's.
This is because i think a few people have mistaken the really really lound injectors as the noise we're talking about. Just best if everyone is on the same page.
On 2002-01-09 12:38, Silver Venom wrote:
Hey guys,
I have the same problem with my Cobra.
After the 1st 1000k miles my car would knock on cold start up and only last for a few seconds. I had it to the dealer 4 times and they did nothing. This was back in May.
Now that it is cold I have the extended knock/tap that you guys described.
I have been reading that alot of the 2001 mustangs have this. It seems like the GTs, Bullitts & Cobras have the same problem.
I not sure of the exact engine differences between the 3 - but whatever is different can be ruled out as the problem (most likely).
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks for the input, dude.
The Cobra has a Dual Overhead Cam engine; a DOHC motor. The Gt's and bullitts have the Single overhead cam (Sohc) motor.
Your car has 4 cam shafts, ours has two. The valve train is quite different between the two motors.
I had heard of a few instances on Corral.net of some cobras expereincing this noise.
Start-up knock isn't an issue here with the Bullitts and Gt's. Its the strange noise at or near 3k rpm when the engine is cold or has set for extended periods.
As far as i know NOBODY has been able to reproduce the noise in neutral. and there is no knock in neutral or start-up. But in gear for the first few minutes of driving, the engine sounds literally like a diesel and makes the peculiar rapping sound at 3k rpm.
I have what sounds like classic piston slap; i noticed this the first day i had the car and wasn't really concerned. This rapping noise is out of control. The piston slap i hear is at about 2000-2500 rpm and then at 3k rpm the rapping starts.
Just wanted to make the issue abundantly clear for your sake as well as anyone else's.
This is because i think a few people have mistaken the really really lound injectors as the noise we're talking about. Just best if everyone is on the same page.
Oil samples are pretty inexpensive up here on the west coast of Canada. About $15.00 Cdn. per sample and will tell you virtually everything you need to know. It is best if you sample at least two consectutive time at oil change time to get consistant readings. Be very careful to keep the sample bottle clean and not allow any forgien material into the sample. It will normally take about 3 days to get the results back. Your local Catapiller dealer will sell you the bottle, you return the the full bottle and they will send you the results. If you have access to a fax machine you can get the results quicker.
1NastyFordGT,
I checked out the website: $19.95 (first page?) or $21.50+$5 UPS (order form) is pretty inexpensive. Their online order form does not use SSL (it's not secure), thus I don't recommend anyone use it for a credit card order (non-techies: the URL is not https). They do have an 800 number at http://www.oillab.com/cominfo.html.
Thanks for the info. Perhaps we can get a group corporate rate if we do a group buy.
Since my Bullitt is still at the dealer, I'll call them tomorrow and request an oil analysis (if they haven't changed the oil yet). If they won't cover the test under warranty, I'll offer to pay.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DrivingSimulators on 2002-01-10 01:24 ]</font>
I checked out the website: $19.95 (first page?) or $21.50+$5 UPS (order form) is pretty inexpensive. Their online order form does not use SSL (it's not secure), thus I don't recommend anyone use it for a credit card order (non-techies: the URL is not https). They do have an 800 number at http://www.oillab.com/cominfo.html.
Thanks for the info. Perhaps we can get a group corporate rate if we do a group buy.
Since my Bullitt is still at the dealer, I'll call them tomorrow and request an oil analysis (if they haven't changed the oil yet). If they won't cover the test under warranty, I'll offer to pay.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DrivingSimulators on 2002-01-10 01:24 ]</font>
TxBullitt, did your engine builder say that this is something to be concerned about (the short skirt piston characteristic) or is it an area that needs to be corrected by Ford? There seem to be a lot of owners who are experiencing the same problem (the 3k clatter) but I haven't heard of anyone having engine failure that can be attributed to it. If it's something I don't need to worry about I can work my driving habits around it....as long as it stays above 3k rpm....and convince myself that I'll be OK. Of course, as long as Ford can't decide what the problem is or won't accept that there is one, what's the recourse?
Nasty, FOr oil analysis, here is one out of CA for $8.00
http://www.oilguardfilters.com/catalog/oilAnalyses.php
http://www.oilguardfilters.com/catalog/oilAnalyses.php
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
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