TrueBullittBlue how do you like the 17 and18' wheel combo?
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I think it works real nice. When I looked at the car, I first thought of lowering it. I checked out photos of people who dropped their stangs and thought w/ 17" rims it didn't look right. It is a large car and the wheel wells are certainly proportionate to it, but when dropped on 17's the space between the top of the tire to the wheel well is considerably smaller than the sides of the tire to the sides of the wheel well.
So then I started looking at 18's, but only for the back because the front 17's looked bigger than the rear 17's. Since the car is shaped like an arrow, where the back is bigger than the front, something had to be done to compensate for the optical illusion that made the rear wheels look smaller.
So, that's why the 18's on the back with 275 40 ZR18. I originally had 35 sidewalls when I bought the wheels and they didn't look right, far too low profile in comparison to stock 17 tires and they were still about the same total circumference as the 17's with 45 sidewalls. I had them swap the 35's out to the 40's and then it worked. It filled the rear wheel well better, like the 17's fit the front wells.
Also, the front stock rims are more flush with the side of the car, where the stock rear rims weren't. Even though the 18x9.5 made the rims stick out more in back, it still needed to come out at least a 1/4". So I bought 3/8" spacers and they are perfect! The front and rear wheels are equally flush with sides of the car now.
When you look at the car from all angles, most people don't realize I have 18's on the back because it looks proportionate all the way around. That's the kind of visual mods I like, the ones you don't notice, but somehow make the car look better against another Stang.
Hope that helps. Jeez, my toes are tired.
So then I started looking at 18's, but only for the back because the front 17's looked bigger than the rear 17's. Since the car is shaped like an arrow, where the back is bigger than the front, something had to be done to compensate for the optical illusion that made the rear wheels look smaller.
So, that's why the 18's on the back with 275 40 ZR18. I originally had 35 sidewalls when I bought the wheels and they didn't look right, far too low profile in comparison to stock 17 tires and they were still about the same total circumference as the 17's with 45 sidewalls. I had them swap the 35's out to the 40's and then it worked. It filled the rear wheel well better, like the 17's fit the front wells.
Also, the front stock rims are more flush with the side of the car, where the stock rear rims weren't. Even though the 18x9.5 made the rims stick out more in back, it still needed to come out at least a 1/4". So I bought 3/8" spacers and they are perfect! The front and rear wheels are equally flush with sides of the car now.
When you look at the car from all angles, most people don't realize I have 18's on the back because it looks proportionate all the way around. That's the kind of visual mods I like, the ones you don't notice, but somehow make the car look better against another Stang.
Hope that helps. Jeez, my toes are tired.
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On 2001-10-14 20:34, stung wrote:
I am wanting to do the same thing but in chrome. Any negatives? What benifits did you see?
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I've seen the chromes, they look real nice. But again, anything that detracts from the overall appearance of the car, hurts. Everytime I see chrome wheels, my eyes go to the wheels and not the car. I like the stock charcoal grey against the True Blues and the DHG's. I think the chrome looks great on the Black Bullitts though because it is the only paint color that acts most like a mirror, like chrome wheels.
It's my logic.
On 2001-10-14 20:34, stung wrote:
I am wanting to do the same thing but in chrome. Any negatives? What benifits did you see?
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I've seen the chromes, they look real nice. But again, anything that detracts from the overall appearance of the car, hurts. Everytime I see chrome wheels, my eyes go to the wheels and not the car. I like the stock charcoal grey against the True Blues and the DHG's. I think the chrome looks great on the Black Bullitts though because it is the only paint color that acts most like a mirror, like chrome wheels.
It's my logic.
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Here is a diagram showing Before and After and how it changes the lines of the car. You'll notice that the thick red line in the bottom 'After' picture is thicker, showing a shift in the angle from 17" to 18". Also how much more evenly the rear tires and rims fit from the side of the wheel well to the top of the wheel well.
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Jerry,
You need to check out http://www.corner-carvers.com
Those guys are ALL about diagrams and stuff like this. I don't know enough to estimate what it would do to the instant center but it seems like it would give a tad bit of push to the car. A panhard bar would prolly do wonders for the handling of this set-up. Lowering the rear roll center could loosen the car up some.(sheesh I hope I have that correct)
_________________
Bullitt-ho JOE
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: stung on 2001-10-16 19:02 ]</font>
You need to check out http://www.corner-carvers.com
Those guys are ALL about diagrams and stuff like this. I don't know enough to estimate what it would do to the instant center but it seems like it would give a tad bit of push to the car. A panhard bar would prolly do wonders for the handling of this set-up. Lowering the rear roll center could loosen the car up some.(sheesh I hope I have that correct)
_________________
Bullitt-ho JOE
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: stung on 2001-10-16 19:02 ]</font>
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On 2001-10-16 19:01, stung wrote:
Jerry,
You need to check out http://www.corner-carvers.com
Those guys are ALL about diagrams and stuff like this. I don't know enough to estimate what it would do to the instant center but it seems like it would give a tad bit of push to the car. A panhard bar would prolly do wonders for the handling of this set-up. Lowering the rear roll center could loosen the car up some.(sheesh I hope I have that correct)
_________________
Bullitt-ho JOE
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: stung on 2001-10-16 19:02 ]</font>
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Wow, you got me totally confused. Please elaborate.
On 2001-10-16 19:01, stung wrote:
Jerry,
You need to check out http://www.corner-carvers.com
Those guys are ALL about diagrams and stuff like this. I don't know enough to estimate what it would do to the instant center but it seems like it would give a tad bit of push to the car. A panhard bar would prolly do wonders for the handling of this set-up. Lowering the rear roll center could loosen the car up some.(sheesh I hope I have that correct)
_________________
Bullitt-ho JOE
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: stung on 2001-10-16 19:02 ]</font>
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Wow, you got me totally confused. Please elaborate.
OK this will be an overly simplistic explanaition so don't kill the messenger!
On a Mustang the rear roll center(the point about which the rear geometry makes the car rotate) is at or just above the top of the rear differential. The front roll center is about 4 feet underground! This is designed understeer. Understeer or as some mistakenly call push is the inability for the front end to turn. In NASCAR they say if your car pushes you will see the wall before you hit it. If your car is loose you will not see the wall because your back end has come around on you.
ALL street cars have designed understeer because that is the most correctable of situations. All you have to do is lift off the throttle or apply brakes to correct a bad situation. If you have a loose car the rear end will come out on you and a spin is gonna happen. The normal instinct is to apply brakes which will make the situation worse.
If you take a stick and run it up the arse end of a Mustang going thru the rear and front roll centers you will have the axis upon which the car rotates in a turn. This stick will be up in the rear and underground in the front. Thus visualize the effects of turning left. The weight of the car is placed on the right front tire creating push. The steeper the angle of the roll axis the more push you will have. One way to lower the rear roll center is by using a panhard bar. This will do two things. ONE: lower the roll center and TWO: be able to better locate the rear axle latterally thus taking some of the work duty off of the upper control arms.
On a Mustang the rear roll center(the point about which the rear geometry makes the car rotate) is at or just above the top of the rear differential. The front roll center is about 4 feet underground! This is designed understeer. Understeer or as some mistakenly call push is the inability for the front end to turn. In NASCAR they say if your car pushes you will see the wall before you hit it. If your car is loose you will not see the wall because your back end has come around on you.
ALL street cars have designed understeer because that is the most correctable of situations. All you have to do is lift off the throttle or apply brakes to correct a bad situation. If you have a loose car the rear end will come out on you and a spin is gonna happen. The normal instinct is to apply brakes which will make the situation worse.
If you take a stick and run it up the arse end of a Mustang going thru the rear and front roll centers you will have the axis upon which the car rotates in a turn. This stick will be up in the rear and underground in the front. Thus visualize the effects of turning left. The weight of the car is placed on the right front tire creating push. The steeper the angle of the roll axis the more push you will have. One way to lower the rear roll center is by using a panhard bar. This will do two things. ONE: lower the roll center and TWO: be able to better locate the rear axle latterally thus taking some of the work duty off of the upper control arms.
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Wow. thanks for the explanation. I think I got it now. Did you find out if that's true for this car? If so, where can I get my hands on a panhard bar?
Thanks Joe, you're becoming a good friend here.
Peace,
Thanks Joe, you're becoming a good friend here.
Peace,
The ONLY Panhard bar I would suggest is the Maximum M/S. They are SUPER nice people and will take the time to explain anything you want to know. Just do them one favor, call their tech line and not the toll free order line when seeking tech.
Their Panhard bar clears the factory routing of the tailpipes, has a piece that goes thru the frame channel to keep it from being squished when bolting the cross bar to the frame and is strong enough if you ever decide to do a torque arm and remove the upper control arms all together.
My car's future has a panhard in it!
www.maximummotorsports.com
Their Panhard bar clears the factory routing of the tailpipes, has a piece that goes thru the frame channel to keep it from being squished when bolting the cross bar to the frame and is strong enough if you ever decide to do a torque arm and remove the upper control arms all together.
My car's future has a panhard in it!
www.maximummotorsports.com
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Go here to see the MM panhard bar and adjustable sway bar:
Round 2 upgrades
http://community.webshots.com/album/18367860FGhqmqHQOO
Round 2 upgrades
http://community.webshots.com/album/20350990gXgYlvPflG
The pahnard bar won'y effect under/over steer. The problem with Mustang rear ends is binding in the 4 link system. You fix that by adding lower control arms with sperical joints in one end to allow bind free up and down motion. You add the panhard bar to positively locate the rear end under lateral loads and take that load off the control arms preventing more bind. Lastely, you add more rear sway bar to change the roll couple more rearward and reduce understeer.
Maximum's site has some great explinations of how all this works. I bought all my parts there after researching all the various suspension pieces out there.
Brian
Round 2 upgrades
http://community.webshots.com/album/18367860FGhqmqHQOO
Round 2 upgrades
http://community.webshots.com/album/20350990gXgYlvPflG
The pahnard bar won'y effect under/over steer. The problem with Mustang rear ends is binding in the 4 link system. You fix that by adding lower control arms with sperical joints in one end to allow bind free up and down motion. You add the panhard bar to positively locate the rear end under lateral loads and take that load off the control arms preventing more bind. Lastely, you add more rear sway bar to change the roll couple more rearward and reduce understeer.
Maximum's site has some great explinations of how all this works. I bought all my parts there after researching all the various suspension pieces out there.
Brian
OK I had to give this a couple of days to make sure but the PB does effectively lower the rear roll center to the height of the bar which in the Mustang's case is lower than the stock roll center. A lower rear roll center will effectively loosen up a Mustang. The quadra-bind rear suspension is archaic however! The cure would be the aforementioned LCAs, Panhard bar, and a torque arm making for a bind free 3 link set up. BUT the major thing wrong with the BULLITT is the sub frame connectors. Ours are not strong enough to be welding the torque arm's mounting tabs to it.
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Adding the panhard bar won't "loosen" up the Mustang at all. What it *will* do is:
1. Tighten up the back end and keep the axle from moving around in the side-to-side plane. The tech info available at Maximum Motorsports site claims up to 2 inches of movement in the Mustang.
2. Dramatically lower the rear roll center compared to stock. This will in turn reduce the weight transfer because there will be a much shorter lever arm between roll center and tire contact patches. There *will* be more leverage from car center of gravity to roll center but the stock anti-roll bar provides next to no roll stiffness.
Adding the panhard bar is a very good idea but plan on also adding a different anti-roll bar to the rear end at the same time or you will make things a lot worse than when you started. As per Brian's setup shown/linked above.
Steve
1. Tighten up the back end and keep the axle from moving around in the side-to-side plane. The tech info available at Maximum Motorsports site claims up to 2 inches of movement in the Mustang.
2. Dramatically lower the rear roll center compared to stock. This will in turn reduce the weight transfer because there will be a much shorter lever arm between roll center and tire contact patches. There *will* be more leverage from car center of gravity to roll center but the stock anti-roll bar provides next to no roll stiffness.
Adding the panhard bar is a very good idea but plan on also adding a different anti-roll bar to the rear end at the same time or you will make things a lot worse than when you started. As per Brian's setup shown/linked above.
Steve
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